Comments on: Future Imperfect & A Plague of Demons by Keith Laumer http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/ Where conservatives discuss the books they read. Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:02:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Sincerelyornot http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-593 Sincerelyornot Fri, 02 May 2008 18:01:15 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-593 ooops, I hit the send button too soon! Involve problems with its mechanics. The way the society enjoys itself is deadly, or the physical way that the society is run is breaking down and everyone will die, etc. "Ember" is a very interesting book with the latter issue. As is usual in anti-utopias, someone is trying to hide that there is a problem. Its just fun to find out what the problem is... maybe that does back to my love of mysteries... ooops, I hit the send button too soon!

Involve problems with its mechanics. The way the society enjoys itself is deadly, or the physical way that the society is run is breaking down and everyone will die, etc. “Ember” is a very interesting book with the latter issue. As is usual in anti-utopias, someone is trying to hide that there is a problem. Its just fun to find out what the problem is… maybe that does back to my love of mysteries…

]]> By: Matt http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-592 Matt Fri, 02 May 2008 17:52:20 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-592 Involve what? And, personally, I found this interesting in that it had parallels to the Garden of Eden and the millennial reign of Christ. Involve what?

And, personally, I found this interesting in that it had parallels to the Garden of Eden and the millennial reign of Christ.

]]> By: Sincerelyornot http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-591 Sincerelyornot Fri, 02 May 2008 17:36:33 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-591 I read it (just now). Very interesting, but I have to say, the only reason its ending is great is because the main character is a nitwit. But then, all the humans shown are irritating to some degree, so why care about them when they self-destruct. The main inconsistancy is that everyone is in perfect peace until the alien stops providing everything for their life ease, and then everything is chaos. I found it frusterating, but then, its realistic (if they guy had been thoughtful, he could have saved the planet), so perhaps it is a great story. But I hated it, and now its stuck in my brain on rewind. :)D In general, any story that starts out with utopia is shrouded in fear because we've all seen so many movies of anti-utopias that we all EXPECT something evil or malevolent to happen. Ironically, as you say, we'd get bored stiff if the utopia was both real and sustained throughout the story. I think my favorite anti-utopia stories involve I read it (just now). Very interesting, but I have to say, the only reason its ending is great is because the main character is a nitwit. But then, all the humans shown are irritating to some degree, so why care about them when they self-destruct. The main inconsistancy is that everyone is in perfect peace until the alien stops providing everything for their life ease, and then everything is chaos. I found it frusterating, but then, its realistic (if they guy had been thoughtful, he could have saved the planet), so perhaps it is a great story. But I hated it, and now its stuck in my brain on rewind. :)D

In general, any story that starts out with utopia is shrouded in fear because we’ve all seen so many movies of anti-utopias that we all EXPECT something evil or malevolent to happen. Ironically, as you say, we’d get bored stiff if the utopia was both real and sustained throughout the story. I think my favorite anti-utopia stories involve

]]> By: Matt http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-590 Matt Thu, 01 May 2008 20:54:42 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-590 Never actually read a book about a real utopia. Possibly because utopia would be boring. :-P What makes a story interesting is conflict and that wouldn't exist in utopia. Or not to any real degree. That's not quite true. I did read a short story The Blue Tower by Evelyn Smith. Look it up on LibriVox.org. If you listen to it, its 34 minutes. Essentially, earth lives under a benevolent dictatorship that provides every need, virtually like heaven. Except for the inability to rule oneself. The utopia was real. The only "problem" was that mankind did not have the ability to self-govern. One young man attempts to protect the system from the few malcontents. Great story with a great ending. Check that out. Never actually read a book about a real utopia. Possibly because utopia would be boring. :-P What makes a story interesting is conflict and that wouldn’t exist in utopia. Or not to any real degree.

That’s not quite true. I did read a short story The Blue Tower by Evelyn Smith. Look it up on LibriVox.org. If you listen to it, its 34 minutes. Essentially, earth lives under a benevolent dictatorship that provides every need, virtually like heaven. Except for the inability to rule oneself. The utopia was real. The only “problem” was that mankind did not have the ability to self-govern. One young man attempts to protect the system from the few malcontents. Great story with a great ending.

Check that out.

]]> By: Sincerelyornot http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-589 Sincerelyornot Thu, 01 May 2008 20:17:39 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-589 Ah. That's my general approach to philosophy; if I can learn something about it via the Tudor/Renaissance period, awesome. Well, you can keep me on track about utopia and anti-utopia and dystopia, and I'll happily do the same for you in history when I can. :) We can trade off. Since Anti-Utopia is only pleasent on the surface/when you go with the program, how does Utopia ever happen? I have yet to read anything that has a real utopia involved, (i.e., you always have to follow the rules for utopia to work, otherwise it fails). I know the term literaly means "no place", and is impossible in reality outside of heaven, but have you ever read a book where utopia did exist? Even Aristotle's ideal city had issues (slavery, everyone has to conform, etc). Ah. That’s my general approach to philosophy; if I can learn something about it via the Tudor/Renaissance period, awesome. Well, you can keep me on track about utopia and anti-utopia and dystopia, and I’ll happily do the same for you in history when I can. :) We can trade off.

Since Anti-Utopia is only pleasent on the surface/when you go with the program, how does Utopia ever happen? I have yet to read anything that has a real utopia involved, (i.e., you always have to follow the rules for utopia to work, otherwise it fails). I know the term literaly means “no place”, and is impossible in reality outside of heaven, but have you ever read a book where utopia did exist? Even Aristotle’s ideal city had issues (slavery, everyone has to conform, etc).

]]> By: Matt http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-588 Matt Thu, 01 May 2008 15:52:19 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-588 Hmm. Tough question. I tend to get absorbed in characters so if the book is tragic without an excellent philosophical discussion, I won't like it. So for pleasure reading, I'll take the happy ending. For intellectual reading I don't care. BTW, Binding of the Blade series needs to be viewed from a big picture perspective. Don't know if that is clear in the reviews, but remember that the characters are secondary to the point. Dune is good. Sorry, I confuse the various epochs of British history.... I have no idea what they are and tend to throw one term or another out and hope it sticks properly. Guess I missed the dart board with this one. And if you're reading this Katherine; I don't care enough to go figure it out right now, so deal with it. :-P I don't have a favorite era of history as I don't read history for its own sake. I read books about events or issues that also enlighten me to a specific period in history. So the history is secondary. That's not to say that I don't like it. Give me a book that interests me and is also history. Like: World on Fire which you can look up on this site as well. Hmm. Tough question. I tend to get absorbed in characters so if the book is tragic without an excellent philosophical discussion, I won’t like it. So for pleasure reading, I’ll take the happy ending. For intellectual reading I don’t care.

BTW, Binding of the Blade series needs to be viewed from a big picture perspective. Don’t know if that is clear in the reviews, but remember that the characters are secondary to the point.

Dune is good. Sorry, I confuse the various epochs of British history…. I have no idea what they are and tend to throw one term or another out and hope it sticks properly. Guess I missed the dart board with this one. And if you’re reading this Katherine; I don’t care enough to go figure it out right now, so deal with it. :-P
I don’t have a favorite era of history as I don’t read history for its own sake. I read books about events or issues that also enlighten me to a specific period in history. So the history is secondary. That’s not to say that I don’t like it. Give me a book that interests me and is also history. Like: World on Fire which you can look up on this site as well.

]]> By: Sincerelyornot http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-587 Sincerelyornot Thu, 01 May 2008 15:36:13 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-587 Hahaha... no, not all fantasy has that issue. Its just a genere tendancy; sci fi tends (when it has issues) to be more violent than impudent. Both can have both problems. "Binding of the Blade" sounds good, I'll have to check out those reveiws. I enjoy fantasy alot, but mostly the kids versions. Adult (and teen) ones tend to have the issues discussed above. Plus, in a kids book, the author rarely tries to make the plot overly complex and historical-sounding (I know too much real history for that to impress me, unfortionately). Alex Rider, Artemis fowl, etc... semi-fantasy for a crowd that isn't interested in intellectual discussions via literature. For the purpose of discussion: would you rather read a book with a happy ending or a book that went into deep philosophical territory but ended like a horror story? Someone else recommended Dune to me, once. I like English history in general. :) At the moment, I think my effections are more Tudor than Victorian, but good memory! What is your "favorite history" era? (As my brother once put it). Hahaha… no, not all fantasy has that issue. Its just a genere tendancy; sci fi tends (when it has issues) to be more violent than impudent. Both can have both problems. “Binding of the Blade” sounds good, I’ll have to check out those reveiws.

I enjoy fantasy alot, but mostly the kids versions. Adult (and teen) ones tend to have the issues discussed above. Plus, in a kids book, the author rarely tries to make the plot overly complex and historical-sounding (I know too much real history for that to impress me, unfortionately). Alex Rider, Artemis fowl, etc… semi-fantasy for a crowd that isn’t interested in intellectual discussions via literature. For the purpose of discussion: would you rather read a book with a happy ending or a book that went into deep philosophical territory but ended like a horror story?

Someone else recommended Dune to me, once. I like English history in general. :) At the moment, I think my effections are more Tudor than Victorian, but good memory! What is your “favorite history” era? (As my brother once put it).

]]> By: Matt http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-586 Matt Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:57:31 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-586 Consider a future society (as in Soylent Green) in which unemployment is high, the earth is over-crowded, food is scarce, and global warming is making Earth unbearable. Or think about post-apocalyptic societies in which few people are trying to survive the remnants of a nuclear holocaust. Those would be dystopian. Anti-Utopia would be a society that appears to be pleasant on the surface. Plenty of food and Earth has become Gaia. Yet, there is a problem (or many) such as selective reproduction to control population, euthanasia, or shunning of people to maintain that pleasant atmosphere. Both places are bad to live, but one COULD be pleasant if you go with the program. The other is always bad. Well, if you want other great Sci-Fi, read Starship Troopers, Ender's Game, and Dune. All are fantastic and excluding Dune, the violence is minimal to almost non-existent. All of them are more intellectual treatises on various subjects. I should mention that all of them are PG to PG13 based on language and suggested content. None of them are really problematic for a mature reader though. And as you like Victorian England, Dune would interest you. It is an amalgamation of various societies and governments from throughout history. Much of it would be taken from European and British historical governments. Great stuff. And isn't that view of Fantasy a little over-broad? ;-) I do get your point though and Fantasy is typically characterized that way for a reason. I assume you haven't read the Binding of the Blade series? I have the first three reviewed on the site, so check them out. Very shortly, I will start book four. And, the cover of book 2 has a quote from this site.... Consider a future society (as in Soylent Green) in which unemployment is high, the earth is over-crowded, food is scarce, and global warming is making Earth unbearable. Or think about post-apocalyptic societies in which few people are trying to survive the remnants of a nuclear holocaust. Those would be dystopian.

Anti-Utopia would be a society that appears to be pleasant on the surface. Plenty of food and Earth has become Gaia. Yet, there is a problem (or many) such as selective reproduction to control population, euthanasia, or shunning of people to maintain that pleasant atmosphere. Both places are bad to live, but one COULD be pleasant if you go with the program. The other is always bad.

Well, if you want other great Sci-Fi, read Starship Troopers, Ender’s Game, and Dune. All are fantastic and excluding Dune, the violence is minimal to almost non-existent. All of them are more intellectual treatises on various subjects. I should mention that all of them are PG to PG13 based on language and suggested content. None of them are really problematic for a mature reader though. And as you like Victorian England, Dune would interest you. It is an amalgamation of various societies and governments from throughout history. Much of it would be taken from European and British historical governments. Great stuff.

And isn’t that view of Fantasy a little over-broad? ;-)

I do get your point though and Fantasy is typically characterized that way for a reason. I assume you haven’t read the Binding of the Blade series? I have the first three reviewed on the site, so check them out. Very shortly, I will start book four. And, the cover of book 2 has a quote from this site….

]]> By: Sincerelyornot http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-585 Sincerelyornot Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:55:16 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-585 Hmmm, regarding anti-utopia, its possible that's the case. However, usually when utopia goes wrong its because the planning had bad choices (famous varaitations include drugging everyone except the powerful into a zombie worker state, killing people off for body parts while making them think they live in safety, etc) that involved sacrificing something important for the "greater good" of the leadership. What bad utopia doesn't have major issues regarding choices made in the past? I've never studied up on the subject, so please, enlighten me. Either way, anti-utopia and dystopia grow out of bad choices made (and someone's personal good is always at stake in those choices, which they, in turn, see as the greater good). I am not a fan of sci fi in general, with the exception of Star Wars. Too much gore. I have read short stories of the genere, and mostly kids-oreinted Star Wars books when I was a teenager. One thing I did enjoy about Star Wars (as my main excursion into sci-fi territory) was the consistancy of the universe across all the different authors and series of novels. Even if you got really nit-picky, the timelines and gadgetry remained the same. Fantasy is not sci fi (its usual flaw is adult content, not gore/horror), on that I think we can all agree. Hmmm, regarding anti-utopia, its possible that’s the case. However, usually when utopia goes wrong its because the planning had bad choices (famous varaitations include drugging everyone except the powerful into a zombie worker state, killing people off for body parts while making them think they live in safety, etc) that involved sacrificing something important for the “greater good” of the leadership. What bad utopia doesn’t have major issues regarding choices made in the past? I’ve never studied up on the subject, so please, enlighten me. Either way, anti-utopia and dystopia grow out of bad choices made (and someone’s personal good is always at stake in those choices, which they, in turn, see as the greater good).

I am not a fan of sci fi in general, with the exception of Star Wars. Too much gore. I have read short stories of the genere, and mostly kids-oreinted Star Wars books when I was a teenager. One thing I did enjoy about Star Wars (as my main excursion into sci-fi territory) was the consistancy of the universe across all the different authors and series of novels. Even if you got really nit-picky, the timelines and gadgetry remained the same.

Fantasy is not sci fi (its usual flaw is adult content, not gore/horror), on that I think we can all agree.

]]> By: Matt http://conservativebooktalk.com/2008/04/27/future-imperfect-a-plague-of-demons-by-keith-laumer/#comment-584 Matt Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:58:54 +0000 http://conservativebooktalk.com/?p=221#comment-584 I guess your statement about dystopia being a common plot device depends your view of dystopia. I would agree with the school of thought that argues for four societies: Utopia, Normal, Dystopia, Anti-Utopia. The difference between the latter is significant in my opinion. A dystopia is based on the fears of how current social ills will develop into a terrible society. An Anti-Utopia appears to be a normal utopia, but contains a fatal flaw. Some argue that the end result is the same: a society that is negative and fearful. Somewhere you wouldn't want to live. The difference as I see it is the openness and structure of the societies. One is built to be good and fails, the other is grown out of bad choices in the present. There, how's that for nit picking? :-) You are right about sci-fi being a great place to build philosophical discussions. I hadn't thought about that aspect much before, but I am coming to see that point of view. One of my friends reads a lot of sci-fi and has been pointing me in the direction of various books because of the philosophy they teach. (For the purpose of discussion....) What sci-fi have you read/like? And no, fantasy is not sci-fi. I guess your statement about dystopia being a common plot device depends your view of dystopia. I would agree with the school of thought that argues for four societies:

Utopia, Normal, Dystopia, Anti-Utopia. The difference between the latter is significant in my opinion. A dystopia is based on the fears of how current social ills will develop into a terrible society. An Anti-Utopia appears to be a normal utopia, but contains a fatal flaw.

Some argue that the end result is the same: a society that is negative and fearful. Somewhere you wouldn’t want to live. The difference as I see it is the openness and structure of the societies. One is built to be good and fails, the other is grown out of bad choices in the present.

There, how’s that for nit picking? :-)
You are right about sci-fi being a great place to build philosophical discussions. I hadn’t thought about that aspect much before, but I am coming to see that point of view. One of my friends reads a lot of sci-fi and has been pointing me in the direction of various books because of the philosophy they teach. (For the purpose of discussion….)

What sci-fi have you read/like? And no, fantasy is not sci-fi.

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